idle banter

Thursday, August 24, 2006

Not abortion again?!




I have had a number of encounters and conversations around abortion over the past few weeks. It seems to be one of those issues that keep popping up in a range of debates, ranging from economics and morality to theology and pshycology.

Maybe you have a story or a belief to share, I'd be keen to hear

posted by Hercules at 12:07 PM

24 Comments:

  • Oh, brilliant Hercules.
    A wonderful tactic for missing the fucking point!


    Phew! Now that that is out of the way, what do y'all think about abortion. I need some counsel on the issue based on something that's going on in my sphere at the moment. (No, I didn't get anyone pregnant)

    What do you say to someone who asks for your help in this situation? It all seems very clear up until it's staring you in the face.

    I share Bill Hick's stance of "if you really care, then adopt a child thats already here alone, and really needs some love. Rather that than attacking another persons choice in desperation that they are anyway going to have to live with for the rest of their lives. If you're really so pro-life, then chain up the gates of a cemetary and protest there rather than practice hypocrisy."

    And bear in mind that it was Nelson Mandela who legalised abortion in this country.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 8/25/2006 06:36:00 PM  

  • I miss the Nelson Mandela angle... Are you saying it is ok as long as Madiba says so. It was the same Madiba who said 14 year-olds should have a vote. Don't get me wrong, He is a great human, but he is just human, let's not give him some divine quality where it doesn't exist. If Mandela's views are so important to you, what do you think God says about abortion?

    PS. How did I miss the point as per your eloquent opening paragraph?

    By Blogger Hercules, at 8/28/2006 10:55:00 AM  

  • " And so the questions from the men keep coming...

    a fantastic strategy for missing the fucking point!

    (oh, and no, that wasn't a joke, in case someone's crying "ooh, a pun, a pun!!!")

    By dube, at 3/27/2006 05:30:25 PM "

    Oh... nothing - Just another lame attempt at provoking Barry out of his warren. His styre of Fu is strong, but he rack a disciprine!

    To Nelson the great... It's just I'm of the opinion that 30 years in Prison facing possible death every day may well have given him an interesting perspective on life.

    Fact is, until people start thinking for themselves and questioning geopolitical conditions, the world can't sustain any more orphans and refugees. Take a trip up North to some of our neighbours, and ask them what they have to say about South Africa (the rest of Africa says we aren't a part of Africa, we don't belong). I've been to Zimbabwe, and that was before Mogabe's siphilis advanced this far.

    It's a woman's choice... thats where my case ends. And the facility should be there for her to choose if she so wish. My ex girlfriend had an abortion care of a her boyfriend before me, and I've seen what it does to someone living with it afterwards. I still respected her right to choose and didn't judge her for it. (CO: Righteous Indignation)

    Sanctity of life, my ass. Once again - adopt a child that is already here if you care so much, it's not like homeless children are in short supply. Fuck it, sponsor a child in for R200 a month (yes, that's what it cost).

    Perhaps we can start being the change we want to see in the world, hopefully see a day when a woman doesn't need to choose.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 8/29/2006 02:47:00 AM  

  • stylek- I agree with you 100% that this is up to a woman to decide for herself (unless she decides at say 7 1/2 months that she doesn't want a baby-then the choice is to give it up for adoption). However, things like sex-selective abortion, a common practice in India, definitely make me lean towards being rather judgemental. I suppose this is kind of related to what you say about changing society so that a woman doesn't need to make this choice.

    Herc- interesting that you talk about what God has to say. Philip Yancey points out that even though Jesus lived in a culture that legalised abortion and infanticide, he is silent in all 4 gospels on the issue of abortions. He found time to talk about worrying, gossip,pointless speculation about religious issues and neglecting the needy as sins, but left this one out.

    I think a guiding principle here is that we can only really speak with authority about what we feel is right and wrong for OUR lives/our S.O's lives- we are badly out of our depths whenever we try to impose our morality on others.

    By Blogger peter, at 8/30/2006 10:16:00 PM  

  • So, let me answer the question for my own situation:

    If my girlfriend were to fall pregnant:

    I would vocally insist on an abortion in the early stages of pregnancy if continuing the pregnancy clearly endangered her life.

    I would support her choice for an abortion if the pregnancy was the result of a rape (by implication: I would support carrying the baby full term if she chose that)

    I can't see a situation where I'd find it acceptable for us to have an abortion for financial/convenience reasons.

    So that's my basic, oversimplified view of what God has to say to me in my situation

    By Blogger peter, at 8/30/2006 11:45:00 PM  

  • That sounds about right to me, peter.

    But I am curious about what population figure is sustainable by earth's natural resources. I don't wish to sound less sympathetic: but is it realistic to assume there is such a number.

    That, and it seems to be the poorest of the poor that are reproducing at the fastest rate. Contemporary Economics is nothing more than diluted Neo-Fascism ignorant of social responsiblity. I would assume that producing too many children is the height of irresponsibility, but nobody ever seems to think beyond the trauma of a bi-product of their own actions.

    Realistically, I'm inclined to believe society is ill - and abortion is a tragically-suited partial outlet to even bigger problems not seeing the light of day when the topic is raised.

    Without this measure, however, I believe natural entropy would solve problems of over population in it's own way, as it alway seems to.

    I believe we need a new philosophy less provisional of the "free" right to reproduction. It's a God given privilege, and some of the blame should be proportioned to negligence in an assumed "right" to that privilege.

    I've tried really hard not to let my emotions cloud my judgement here - forgive me if I took this too far.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/05/2006 11:24:00 AM  

  • I am not sure that I feel comfortable to speak of economics and right to life in the same sentence.

    If economics were a factor, then why do we stop at the unborn? Why not reconsider the economic viability of those already born into poverty? Is this line of argument not the very reason why we value 3000 New York lives more than 100 000 Iraqi lives?

    Stylek, not to burst your bubble, but I do believe that God provided for us sufficient resources to live and to live well. I would hate to think that God would make a life and place it in a world where it can not survive. We hear of how the top 100 wealthiest people earn as much as the poorest billion and my focus shifts from killing the unborn to fighting injustice and greed.

    As much as we want to say that it is the woman's choice, all life belongs to God, even those produced through rape. No child deserves to be killed for the sin of another... but then again, I speak as someone who has never been forced to make such a decision.

    By Blogger Hercules, at 9/05/2006 02:25:00 PM  

  • See, that's where we differ, Herc. I don't mean economics in a free market sense. I mean economics as responsibility for what God has entrusted to us: The Planet.

    Human beings on the whole are, with exception, despicable to my cynical viewpoint - replicating in a fashion more suited to a virus than a mammal.

    A sustainable utopic society isn't going to happen with an insistent right to reproduction. Saying "God will just take care of it" sounds irresponsible to me - how is that a virtue worthy of his trust?

    May I direct your attention to China, where meat markets are set up with any variety of animal people can get their hands on, and slaughtered in the street to feed a bulging population. They even hack off pieces at a time and keep the animal alive as long as possible to keep the meat fresh. But perhaps God does take care of it though - can anyone say Bird Flu?

    Personally, I would rather a foetus be aborted in the first trimester than 56 dogs, 10 cats, 12 lizards, 43 pigeons... all suffer a long and painful death being torn limb from limb with a machete in the street to feed yet another ungrateful "miracle of life."

    As Bill Hicks would say: "Little miracles are popping up in trailer parks all over the world." I don't care if saying this makes me very unpopular, it's how I feel.

    Sorry...

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/07/2006 07:18:00 AM  

  • Herc- stylek's comments about 'economics' go back a long way- Thomas Malthus wrote about 'overshooting the planet's carrying capacity' 200 years ago.

    Getting back to abortion though: maybe there is a sense in which you can call aborting a product of a rape a 'convenience abortion'. So what do you think about the situation where continuing the pregnancy is likely to endanger the mother's life?

    wigkiyk

    By Blogger peter, at 9/07/2006 09:29:00 AM  

  • Stylek, you are right. We differ when you refer to life as a virus. I am certainly on a different page to you on this one and don't see us agreeing if I listen to the words and examples you use. It is this kind of prejudice that caused the economic imbalance in the first place. As a world, we don't value life if it is of a different race, social standing or economic class. Just a last thought Stylek, because Jeffrey Dahmer ate people, are we morally justified to say that American babies should be aborted? In the case of Germans, do we encourage the killing of their young just because their race produced a Hitler? Evil is found not only in poverty.

    Peter, I am not sure of my moral position on abortion and I find it difficult expressing my views as its fraught with contradictions. What I would like to believe though, is that God values life, all life. Whenever I am faced with this kind of argument, my prayer is that I would speak God's words. Each time I do, I realise God is on the side of life, but my human experience contradicts this when it's confronted.

    Again, my moral gut feel is that if a woman's life is threatened, abortion would be a choice. You see my struggle?

    By Blogger Hercules, at 9/07/2006 09:45:00 AM  

  • we geniunely need a woman to comment on this topic. Come to think of it, Idle Banter threatens to become a male dominated play field unless we get some women involved. Perhaps we're not just inviting enough?

    By Blogger Aiden, at 9/07/2006 05:01:00 PM  

  • Are we inviting at all? Since my inception I have asked maybe five people to participate - and a few of them have had utterances of "I ain't touching on any of that!"

    I am curious - could an admin gives us a the hit count from the statcounter attached to this page? Aiden - isn't that you?

    Why ain't you common doin' church goin' folk asking them there peoples to come along an blog? If I am welcome here (not to be a martyr or anything, but at times I have my doubts :) ) then I am sure you can accomodate a few more?

    How many people do you think read this weblog without contributing - I know of a few. If you are reading this, jump on in. Please - it's just about abortion, really! (Devil's advocate position is already taken, though!)

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/08/2006 08:43:00 AM  

  • Herc - I prefer mathematics to mysticism. And on that basis, life in general demonstrates viral growth patterns, unless there is a lion to keep the antelope in check and so-be-so (no antelope, no lion).

    Why should we be any different. I know God says we are different, but that doesn't give us the right to neglect his creation (which, as a corollary, will kill us all be the case). I don't want to argue with God (again) because I invariably lose. But in this case, I don't think I am. I just don't have some delusion of human grandeur, because the only way I see us getting there is through humility. My suggestion would be sterilisation and sperm banks, but that is a violation of human rights which further encourages promiscuous sex.

    Think what you like, but most people are sheep that would screw in the street without consequence. They have the potential to be anything they chose, but most just don't.

    Waking Life said it best: "The gap between the average human being and a great philosopher like Plato or Socrates is far greater than such a gap and a chimpanzee."

    Having thought about it: I agree with you theory that the system would work if it were allowed to. The only problem is that any time anyone tries to make that change, we tend to kill them.

    From Revolver:

    "If you try to destroy the enemy to save them, they will destroy you to save him. They think he is their best friend."

    People aren't any more special or miraculous than any of God's other creations as I see it. If we are, we have seriously missed the boat somewhere. And the miracle of life, as a whole, I revere not as a virus. It's my fellow man I doubt sometimes - the same guy who is two IQ points short of the same feces throwing.

    The term "entropy" springs to mind.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/08/2006 08:59:00 AM  

  • Abortion, woohoo

    I will follow in th steps of styleK and return a point that Bill Hicks has made: "the day they find a cure for aids, people are gonna be fucking in the streets. grabbing people they don't even know spreadin em wide and getting it on"

    so what am i saying? am i saying abortion is bad,that its just allowing people to go ahead and romp the saddle with anyone, assured that if theres a bagle in the oven, turn it off and remove it before its done .
    or am i supporting stylek's detail that yes, people are stupid, people do stupid things, people create trailer parks.

    i'm not saying either. i'm saying that like any drug, incident, experience, and game, don't knock it until you've tried it. don't preach tome and tell me that i'm bad cuz i like abortion, don't tell me that i'm naughty cuz abortion is the only way to go and not ruin the rest of your life when you've done something stupid.

    my problem with abortion is that we wouldn't need it if people could just think beyond their groin. but the only way to stop that is remove all advertising,destroy your tv,welcome big brother and slip into nineteen eighty four.

    or am i just talking shit into the ears of the hypothetical?

    By Blogger Eonblue, at 9/08/2006 02:21:00 PM  

  • Hey Herc; I think we just fell down that hypothetical staircase. Do the spiralling hand thudd thing.

    Hiya doin?

    Perhaps not the most eloquent way of saying things. But, um, welcome - I am not sure I agree or even understand entirely what you are getting at - but it's nice to have a new face, Eon.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/08/2006 02:40:00 PM  

  • Thanks to Eon for his 'Notes from the Twilight zone'.... whatcha smoking Blue?

    By Blogger Hercules, at 9/09/2006 08:48:00 AM  

  • Ah, another person who doesn't get the point. I'm saying who are you to wave your finger when you haven't been in the situation? How can you say that a woman should go through childbirth, have the kid, and then give it up for adoption because she can't afford the child. don't forget that she is a single parent, a rape victim, etc.

    Or she's just some trailer park chick. people are stupid. sex is popular, people like doing it. is sex a far out idea for you herc?

    the only thing that is bad about abortion is the damage and violation the operation gives the woman. i'm not getting into the soul of the child argument.

    the only way you can stop abortion is to educate the randy plebs and lower the price of condoms.

    Herc, go read nineteen eighty four, george orwell, find out that big brother is actually not a silly reality tv program.

    you seem to often think intelligence and wit consists of one liners...

    By Blogger Eonblue, at 9/09/2006 10:15:00 AM  

  • Your case study is Orwell? You mean that book I read in high school in between smoking too much weed and buying into the mysticism of hacker culture?

    Well... perhaps orwell does appeal to your particular niche of social indiscretion - after all, you can't change what you refuse to acknowledge responsibility for.

    "It's the governments fault - they want to own us and our souls, man. They're evil, man. Quit hoggin' the spliff, man."

    It will ownly cease to be a governance thing when people (YOU!) take responsbility for the things they think government should be doing for them. Does it feel nice to complain, though? Sure - but when are "they" going to do something about it?

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/09/2006 10:11:00 PM  

  • "They" as you so nicely put it Stylek, are unable to do anything with it, because their people are too stupid to do anything about it.

    Yes Orwell. probably the closest replication of how society really is. when did you read orwell without being influenmced by some form of low budget skank that was just as dirty as the skank who sold it?

    the current society is p[romoting trailer parks, for the very reasons that you mention. Are you simply missing the point? from all the threads you've written, i would've expected something better from you. But it seems you actually don't seem to be getting the point i'm raising either.

    I find it funny that when you're not hit over the head with a sledgehammer (ref John doe, Seven) most of you don't seem to understand, or simply shrug it off with a "what a driggie comment". i would've thought that this blog would've contained a few more enlightened people who didn't have to have everything spelt out for them.

    and that's where your ignoirance over abortion comes in...

    By Blogger Eonblue, at 9/10/2006 12:51:00 PM  

  • Stylek, I don't mean to interrupt your cute little conversation with yourself, so I'm just going shut up and watch you beat yourself with your own (dim)wit.

    By Blogger Hercules, at 9/10/2006 04:12:00 PM  

  • it seems that hercules has proven himself to be a dimwit (quote hercules) and is now under the impression, that i am StyleK. please visit the following links:

    http://eon-blue-apocalypse.blogspot.com
    http://ethliss.blogspot.com

    my blogs.

    hey if you look closer, you might see my profile. oh wait, you might even realise the by clicking on my name, you can see it there TOO!
    WOW the glory of the internet!! Hyperlinks!! woohoo

    Ok,i will concede,myblogs suck compared to this one, but then i like to rant...

    By Blogger Eonblue, at 9/10/2006 05:41:00 PM  

  • I AM NOT EONBLUE! Really!

    He speaks the truth - and now he is talking to himself.

    By Blogger Stylek, at 9/11/2006 11:44:00 AM  

  • Another clue, Stylek says of EonBlue "He speaks the truth." Stylek would only attribute such an absolute claim if he were talking about himself.

    ...methinks you protesteth too much, young man.

    By Blogger Hercules, at 9/11/2006 01:50:00 PM  

  • ha ha! okay, i think i'm gonna join this one and cause some confusion, even annoyance to Stylek

    Stylek smells like poo poo!!!

    By Blogger Eonblue, at 9/11/2006 07:24:00 PM  

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